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State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules
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vector07 Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:43 pm Posts: 49	Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules Or with spotting. If you remove spotting (or make it cost credits), I think both shriking and sniping's become perfectly balanced.
Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:08 pm

Buhlitz Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:43 am Posts: 910	Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules vector07 wrote: A couple of these fellas have it dead on. The lower the number of players, the more focus there is on individual talent and less focus on overall strategy. 7s is wicked boring. Not sure why people keep saying the game is "faster". There are more llamas in 7s, and there is more punting. These are things that make the game slower, not faster. Standoffs are also far less intense in 7s. Either you D-stack and can hold forever, or you O stack and rapidly overcome the other team. When both teams D-stack, we're seeing standoffs last minutes, whereas in 8s they were far shorter because of balanced O and D. Maybe my team's just not used to it yet, but so far 8s seem alot more fun, interesting, strategic, and fast-paced. How? Also can you link me to these games where 8 player teams have shorter stand offs than the average 7's game. Proof plz. Also, please tell me exactly how 7's is more individual talent but less overall strategy. You aren't making sense. _________________
Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:55 pm

vector07 Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:43 pm Posts: 49	Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules Personal experience is all. We played area51 last week in 8s, this week in 7s. Seems like a good control experiment. Last week standoffs never lasted more than 2-3 minutes. This week, there were standoffs that were so long it felt like turtling. End of katabatic is good example, 51 took the lead and then D-stacked, held flag for 6-7 minutes even against an O stack. On drydock, just to show how dumb it is, we D-stacked to the same effect after going up 4-2. Check Zoid or Blinks casts if you want to see, I believe they have VODs for both. As for why I think it's more fun, interesting and strategic, do you want me to write an essay? It's my opinion. For example though, in your essay waxing about 7s, you say there are more possibilities for defense in 7s, and they all have weaknesses. That's correct, they all have weaknesses: it hardly even matters what D strategy you run, 4 competent offensive players will destroy you no matter what you do. That's not really fun, IMO, and I'm an offense player. In 8s, there are as many or more possibilities for the defense, and offensive strategy really has to adapt to what the D is doing. In an even match in 7s, on the other hand, the O can overcome the D regardless of strategy since they have player advantage. I think what is primarily lost in 7s is HoF/tech. You include hof in your list of 7s defensive formations, but without a tech, HoF is pretty ineffective. So you can either tech, snipe, and... hof? with no chaser? or tech, snipe and chase with no hof? Or hof with no tech? I think there's a pretty obvious dominant strategy.. home D soldier, chase D, and snipe. Especially with the idiotic TWL rules w/ no upgrades in the pipeline, that basically eliminates all D strats with a tech and a hof. 7s might as well go to 6s or 5s, and play like tribes 1's LT mode. Which was very fun, but a very different game from 10v10 where strategies and teamwork overcome individual player talent.
Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:08 pm

JohnnyRico Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:21 am Posts: 150	Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules vector07 wrote: Personal experience is all. We played area51 last week in 8s, this week in 7s. Seems like a good control experiment. Last week standoffs never lasted more than 2-3 minutes. This week, there were standoffs that were so long it felt like turtling. End of katabatic is good example, 51 took the lead and then D-stacked, held flag for 6-7 minutes even against an O stack. On drydock, just to show how dumb it is, we D-stacked to the same effect after going up 4-2. Check Zoid or Blinks casts if you want to see, I believe they have VODs for both. As for why I think it's more fun, interesting and strategic, do you want me to write an essay? It's my opinion. For example though, in your essay waxing about 7s, you say there are more possibilities for defense in 7s, and they all have weaknesses. That's correct, they all have weaknesses: it hardly even matters what D strategy you run, 4 competent offensive players will destroy you no matter what you do. That's not really fun, IMO, and I'm an offense player. In 8s, there are as many or more possibilities for the defense, and offensive strategy really has to adapt to what the D is doing. In an even match in 7s, on the other hand, the O can overcome the D regardless of strategy since they have player advantage. I think what is primarily lost in 7s is HoF/tech. You include hof in your list of 7s defensive formations, but without a tech, HoF is pretty ineffective. So you can either tech, snipe, and... hof? with no chaser? or tech, snipe and chase with no hof? Or hof with no tech? I think there's a pretty obvious dominant strategy.. home D soldier, chase D, and snipe. Especially with the idiotic TWL rules w/ no upgrades in the pipeline, that basically eliminates all D strats with a tech and a hof. 7s might as well go to 6s or 5s, and play like tribes 1's LT mode. Which was very fun, but a very different game from 10v10 where strategies and teamwork overcome individual player talent. I dunno about length of standoffs but I find that there are just way way more of them in 7s. This is largely due to how strong O is vs 3D.
Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:32 pm

vector07 Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:43 pm Posts: 49	Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules JohnnyRico wrote: I dunno about length of standoffs but I find that there are just way way more of them in 7s. This is largely due to how strong O is vs 3D. You're right on there. One more thing to add: more people = more chaos, which is fun. When one team's flag is home, and the other is taken, in 8s there is just absolute chaos crashing enemy stand to prevent cap. In 7s, its just one less person, but feels noticeably less exciting. That may be because, as Rico says, its not actually that common that the flag stays home... Buhlitz - this guy nails it I think. http://teamhindsight.com/2012/04/egs-an ... rettyPhoto
Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:47 pm

LL-Blu-J Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:14 am Posts: 361	Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules vector07 wrote: A couple of these fellas have it dead on. The lower the number of players, the more focus there is on individual talent and less focus on overall strategy. 7s is wicked boring. Not sure why people keep saying the game is "faster". There are more llamas in 7s, and there is more punting. These are things that make the game slower, not faster. Standoffs are also far less intense in 7s. Either you D-stack and can hold forever, or you O stack and rapidly overcome the other team. When both teams D-stack, we're seeing standoffs last minutes, whereas in 8s they were far shorter because of balanced O and D. Maybe my team's just not used to it yet, but so far 8s seem alot more fun, interesting, strategic, and fast-paced. Couldn't have said it better myself. We have been transiting from 8s to 7s to get ready for this tournament, and the gameplay feels so much slower. I think for the first time last night I wasn't sleepy and didn't wanna scrim anymore because it was so boring. Our team is going to give it more time, but that's my opinion on it as of now. _________________ T:A in-game name: LLxBLUxJ
Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:04 pm

-Thea- Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:53 pm Posts: 1621	Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules JohnnyRico wrote: vector07 wrote: Personal experience is all. We played area51 last week in 8s, this week in 7s. Seems like a good control experiment. Last week standoffs never lasted more than 2-3 minutes. This week, there were standoffs that were so long it felt like turtling. End of katabatic is good example, 51 took the lead and then D-stacked, held flag for 6-7 minutes even against an O stack. On drydock, just to show how dumb it is, we D-stacked to the same effect after going up 4-2. Check Zoid or Blinks casts if you want to see, I believe they have VODs for both. As for why I think it's more fun, interesting and strategic, do you want me to write an essay? It's my opinion. For example though, in your essay waxing about 7s, you say there are more possibilities for defense in 7s, and they all have weaknesses. That's correct, they all have weaknesses: it hardly even matters what D strategy you run, 4 competent offensive players will destroy you no matter what you do. That's not really fun, IMO, and I'm an offense player. In 8s, there are as many or more possibilities for the defense, and offensive strategy really has to adapt to what the D is doing. In an even match in 7s, on the other hand, the O can overcome the D regardless of strategy since they have player advantage. I think what is primarily lost in 7s is HoF/tech. You include hof in your list of 7s defensive formations, but without a tech, HoF is pretty ineffective. So you can either tech, snipe, and... hof? with no chaser? or tech, snipe and chase with no hof? Or hof with no tech? I think there's a pretty obvious dominant strategy.. home D soldier, chase D, and snipe. Especially with the idiotic TWL rules w/ no upgrades in the pipeline, that basically eliminates all D strats with a tech and a hof. 7s might as well go to 6s or 5s, and play like tribes 1's LT mode. Which was very fun, but a very different game from 10v10 where strategies and teamwork overcome individual player talent. I dunno about length of standoffs but I find that there are just way way more of them in 7s. This is largely due to how strong O is vs 3D. This, so much this. This is why I like 8s better. _________________
Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:30 pm

Frizzer Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:28 pm Posts: 121	Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules vector07 wrote: Personal experience is all. We played area51 last week in 8s, this week in 7s. Seems like a good control experiment. Last week standoffs never lasted more than 2-3 minutes. This week, there were standoffs that were so long it felt like turtling. End of katabatic is good example, 51 took the lead and then D-stacked, held flag for 6-7 minutes even against an O stack. On drydock, just to show how dumb it is, we D-stacked to the same effect after going up 4-2. Check Zoid or Blinks casts if you want to see, I believe they have VODs for both. As for why I think it's more fun, interesting and strategic, do you want me to write an essay? It's my opinion. For example though, in your essay waxing about 7s, you say there are more possibilities for defense in 7s, and they all have weaknesses. That's correct, they all have weaknesses: it hardly even matters what D strategy you run, 4 competent offensive players will destroy you no matter what you do. That's not really fun, IMO, and I'm an offense player. In 8s, there are as many or more possibilities for the defense, and offensive strategy really has to adapt to what the D is doing. In an even match in 7s, on the other hand, the O can overcome the D regardless of strategy since they have player advantage. I think what is primarily lost in 7s is HoF/tech. You include hof in your list of 7s defensive formations, but without a tech, HoF is pretty ineffective. So you can either tech, snipe, and... hof? with no chaser? or tech, snipe and chase with no hof? Or hof with no tech? I think there's a pretty obvious dominant strategy.. home D soldier, chase D, and snipe. Especially with the idiotic TWL rules w/ no upgrades in the pipeline, that basically eliminates all D strats with a tech and a hof. 7s might as well go to 6s or 5s, and play like tribes 1's LT mode. Which was very fun, but a very different game from 10v10 where strategies and teamwork overcome individual player talent. solid post _________________
Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:59 pm

Newmz Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:44 pm Posts: 5359 Steam Gamer Name: newmz.tw	Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules Buhlitz wrote: Also, please tell me exactly how 7's is more individual talent but less overall strategy. You aren't making sense. It's less forgiving with 7s, because no one can cover your mistakes. I'm not saying with something else somebody will always cover your mistakes, but someone on your team might be able to deal with it without leaving their duties with more people per team. and it's also likely that a team would be able to beat one with less talent, even though they might have better strategy. like how somebody with incredible OMGWTFHAX aim is going to beat someone with better dueling skills than him but may not have exceptional aim. _________________ list of common GA abbreviations COMPLAIN ABOUT BAD SMITE TEAMS HERE HiRezErez wrote: Think of all the people who like to troll sitting in chat instead of in your match
Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:25 pm

TripleAAA Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:46 pm Posts: 80	Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules 7v7 sucks and will ruin this already ruined game. It should be 10v10 so more classes can be used. But it seems only a few get to make the rules for how they want it to be. Good luck, in a few months it will be about 4-7 active teams in 7v7. _________________ Make the D A MNATION map for TA viewtopic.php?f=325&t=82915
Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:29 pm

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State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules

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vector07

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:43 pm
Posts: 49

Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules

Or with spotting. If you remove spotting (or make it cost credits), I think both shriking and sniping's become perfectly balanced.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:08 pm

Buhlitz

Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:43 am
Posts: 910

Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules

vector07 wrote:

A couple of these fellas have it dead on. The lower the number of players, the more focus there is on individual talent and less focus on overall strategy.

7s is wicked boring. Not sure why people keep saying the game is "faster". There are more llamas in 7s, and there is more punting. These are things that make the game slower, not faster. Standoffs are also far less intense in 7s. Either you D-stack and can hold forever, or you O stack and rapidly overcome the other team. When both teams D-stack, we're seeing standoffs last minutes, whereas in 8s they were far shorter because of balanced O and D. Maybe my team's just not used to it yet, but so far 8s seem alot more fun, interesting, strategic, and fast-paced.

How?

Also can you link me to these games where 8 player teams have shorter stand offs than the average 7's game. Proof plz.

Also, please tell me exactly how 7's is more individual talent but less overall strategy. You aren't making sense.

_________________

Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:55 pm

vector07

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:43 pm
Posts: 49

Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules

Personal experience is all. We played area51 last week in 8s, this week in 7s. Seems like a good control experiment. Last week standoffs never lasted more than 2-3 minutes. This week, there were standoffs that were so long it felt like turtling. End of katabatic is good example, 51 took the lead and then D-stacked, held flag for 6-7 minutes even against an O stack. On drydock, just to show how dumb it is, we D-stacked to the same effect after going up 4-2. Check Zoid or Blinks casts if you want to see, I believe they have VODs for both.

As for why I think it's more fun, interesting and strategic, do you want me to write an essay? It's my opinion. For example though, in your essay waxing about 7s, you say there are more possibilities for defense in 7s, and they all have weaknesses. That's correct, they all have weaknesses: it hardly even matters what D strategy you run, 4 competent offensive players will destroy you no matter what you do. That's not really fun, IMO, and I'm an offense player. In 8s, there are as many or more possibilities for the defense, and offensive strategy really has to adapt to what the D is doing. In an even match in 7s, on the other hand, the O can overcome the D regardless of strategy since they have player advantage.

I think what is primarily lost in 7s is HoF/tech. You include hof in your list of 7s defensive formations, but without a tech, HoF is pretty ineffective. So you can either tech, snipe, and... hof? with no chaser? or tech, snipe and chase with no hof? Or hof with no tech? I think there's a pretty obvious dominant strategy.. home D soldier, chase D, and snipe. Especially with the idiotic TWL rules w/ no upgrades in the pipeline, that basically eliminates all D strats with a tech and a hof. 7s might as well go to 6s or 5s, and play like tribes 1's LT mode. Which was very fun, but a very different game from 10v10 where strategies and teamwork overcome individual player talent.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:08 pm

JohnnyRico

Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:21 am
Posts: 150

Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules

vector07 wrote:

I dunno about length of standoffs but I find that there are just way way more of them in 7s. This is largely due to how strong O is vs 3D.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:32 pm

vector07

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:43 pm
Posts: 49

Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules

JohnnyRico wrote:

I dunno about length of standoffs but I find that there are just way way more of them in 7s. This is largely due to how strong O is vs 3D.

You're right on there.

One more thing to add: more people = more chaos, which is fun. When one team's flag is home, and the other is taken, in 8s there is just absolute chaos crashing enemy stand to prevent cap. In 7s, its just one less person, but feels noticeably less exciting. That may be because, as Rico says, its not actually that common that the flag stays home...

Buhlitz - this guy nails it I think.

http://teamhindsight.com/2012/04/egs-an ... rettyPhoto

Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:47 pm

LL-Blu-J

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:14 am
Posts: 361

Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules

vector07 wrote:

Couldn't have said it better myself. We have been transiting from 8s to 7s to get ready for this tournament, and the gameplay feels so much slower. I think for the first time last night I wasn't sleepy and didn't wanna scrim anymore because it was so boring.

Our team is going to give it more time, but that's my opinion on it as of now.

_________________
T:A in-game name: LLxBLUxJ

Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:04 pm

-Thea-

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:53 pm
Posts: 1621

Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules

JohnnyRico wrote:

vector07 wrote:

I dunno about length of standoffs but I find that there are just way way more of them in 7s. This is largely due to how strong O is vs 3D.

This, so much this. This is why I like 8s better.

_________________

Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:30 pm

Frizzer

Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:28 pm
Posts: 121

Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules

vector07 wrote:

solid post

_________________

Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:59 pm

Newmz

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:44 pm
Posts: 5359
Steam Gamer Name: newmz.tw

Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules

Buhlitz wrote:

Also, please tell me exactly how 7's is more individual talent but less overall strategy. You aren't making sense.

It's less forgiving with 7s, because no one can cover your mistakes. I'm not saying with something else somebody will always cover your mistakes, but someone on your team might be able to deal with it without leaving their duties with more people per team. and it's also likely that a team would be able to beat one with less talent, even though they might have better strategy. like how somebody with incredible OMGWTFHAX aim is going to beat someone with better dueling skills than him but may not have exceptional aim.

_________________

list of common GA abbreviations COMPLAIN ABOUT BAD SMITE TEAMS HERE

HiRezErez wrote:

Think of all the people who like to troll sitting in chat instead of in your match

Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:25 pm

TripleAAA

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:46 pm
Posts: 80

Re: State of the Shazbot 2 - Competition Rules

7v7 sucks and will ruin this already ruined game. It should be 10v10 so more classes can be used. But it seems only a few get to make the rules for how they want it to be. Good luck, in a few months it will be about 4-7 active teams in 7v7.

_________________
Make the D A MNATION map for TA
viewtopic.php?f=325&t=82915

Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:29 pm