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Yay Balance
Author	Message
-AEnubis- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am Posts: 5296 Location: NA East	Re: Yay Balance For something to be a crutch, it has to be possible to do without said crutch. When you can execute a b2f route with a sub 20s return time, it is impossible to make that chase, and gain that speed from the mid field. Impossible. It's a tool, not a crutch at that point. It's like saying I should be able to run a cheetah down without a vehicle, because the vehicle is a crutch. _________________ Physics \| CTF Scoring \| Team Selection
Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:16 pm

Pumpelche Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:22 am Posts: 2000 Location: Switzerland Steam Gamer Name: Pumpelche	Re: Yay Balance I'm also no k-out fan and rarely do it. But it is the k-out chance we have to play Tribes with a speed and pace comparable with an icehockey match. Here-Go-There-Kill-Die-HereAgain-Go-There.. If the killing yourself-mechanic would be changed to be more time consuming, that pace would disappear and we could also play Planetside 2. We don't want this. Trust me. I've tried it. _________________ REMOVED FROM THE HARDDRIVE - GG HR LOSERS How God imagined Juggernauts should be played..
Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:31 pm

Mindflayr Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:11 pm Posts: 603	Re: Yay Balance K-out has been an integral part of tribes as long as Skiing. It isnt the problem. Spawning in Gear is the part of the problem, as it removes the negative of the K-Out from previous games. However because Naked Path is so s* they backed themselves into a corner during development. With the crap physics where its "Hard to Gain Speed, Easy to Keep Speed" which is the opposite of all t1/t2c they didnt know what else to do. Plus they wanted to make sure that new players could always attempt to play their way regardless of the Objectives (Flags/Gens) so they pushed specialized classes and spawn in gear despiute our protests. Add in Regen compared to healthkits and you ends up with the current s* balance of Chaser vs Capper. In t1 & T2c most maps had a Fastest Cap speed of 5-8 seconds from stand to stand, so high speed capping is nothing new here, the difference is that the chaser has a hard time getting going and if a great return is made they are now out of position to stop the next capper, hence the need for k-out.
Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:21 pm

Gierling Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:56 am Posts: 1546	Re: Yay Balance Its very simply a debug tool that people have institutionalized. Yes its part of the game, but it really does CHANGE gameplay substantially. Imagine if you will if Blizzard put a button in to just give you a fixed amount of resources everytime you press it in SC2 as a debug tool. Now imagine that it made it out to live. Would it be used? Of course it would, it would be the most efficient way of going about things and comp would immedietly put it to use. However it would utterly annihilate a significant part of the intended experience, Economy work would be much diminished as people spam the resource button. Yeah Pro players would still set up a quick eco to double dip a little, but thier main efforts would focus on spamming the button. Thats basically the story of K for Suicide in Tribes, it has become so enshrined that people can't imagine the game without it. Moreover if they had to play without it they would like the game less because they've gotten used to thier crutch. I don't dispute that the game would be fundamentally different without K for suicide, I simply do not fear that outcome and I see how it would resolve a lot of serious issues and promote a much more nuanced product overall.
Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:12 pm

Mindflayr Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:11 pm Posts: 603	Re: Yay Balance we wont get to continue discussion for obvious reasons (ty hirez) but i cant agree it is a debug tool. You can commit suicide 100 different ways int ribes with self damage. they just made it faster so it wasnt frustrating to try and kill yourself with explosives/fall dmg. You can argue it should have a respawn timer (like it does) or that it should be longer as a penalty to discourage it, but it wasnt a flaw in design.
Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:19 pm

Gierling Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:56 am Posts: 1546	Re: Yay Balance Mindflayr wrote: we wont get to continue discussion for obvious reasons (ty hirez) but i cant agree it is a debug tool. You can commit suicide 100 different ways int ribes with self damage. they just made it faster so it wasnt frustrating to try and kill yourself with explosives/fall dmg. You can argue it should have a respawn timer (like it does) or that it should be longer as a penalty to discourage it, but it wasnt a flaw in design. Back in the Dynamix days it was implemented as a Debug tool to help testers if they got stuck in terrain/structure geometry. Which sometimes would create states where you couldn't kill yourself with weapons as they would nonreg on geometry more often then not if the gun was stuck inside an object or under the terrain. If you want to argue this, you will need to travel back in Time to 1998 and convince Jeff Tunnel to not tell me and everyone else in the #Dynamix IRC that bit of information.
Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:40 pm

Mindflayr Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:11 pm Posts: 603	Re: Yay Balance Fair enough. did not know original suicide key was put as a debug. Doesnt remove the idea that taking it out of the game would just mean suicide by explosive weaponry. The fix isnt removing K-out, its changing how it effects the game. It wasnt a problem at all in t1 or t2.... its a prob in TA because you spawn in gear so there is no sacrifice.
Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:07 pm

Whitewhale Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:09 pm Posts: 3587	Re: Yay Balance gierling if u were playing in 98 then im the easter bunny
Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:05 pm

Galileus Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:49 am Posts: 1522	Re: Yay Balance Gierling wrote: Back in the Dynamix days it was implemented as a Debug tool to help testers if they got stuck in terrain/structure geometry. Which sometimes would create states where you couldn't kill yourself with weapons as they would nonreg on geometry more often then not if the gun was stuck inside an object or under the terrain. Skiing was a bug. What's your point? _________________ ... it got a nice ring to it, don't ya think?
Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:23 pm

VashTHT Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:28 pm Posts: 1233	Re: Yay Balance his point is Hi-Rez is shutting down all official servers. today. guess tribes forum and smite forum and all forums are not going to be used anymore. _________________ ... it got a nice ring to it, don't ya think?
Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:51 pm

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Yay Balance

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-AEnubis-

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:40 am
Posts: 5296
Location: NA East

Re: Yay Balance

For something to be a crutch, it has to be possible to do without said crutch.

When you can execute a b2f route with a sub 20s return time, it is impossible to make that chase, and gain that speed from the mid field.

Impossible.

It's a tool, not a crutch at that point.

It's like saying I should be able to run a cheetah down without a vehicle, because the vehicle is a crutch.

_________________

Physics | CTF Scoring | Team Selection

Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:16 pm

Pumpelche

Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:22 am
Posts: 2000
Location: Switzerland
Steam Gamer Name: Pumpelche

Re: Yay Balance

I'm also no k-out fan and rarely do it. But it is the k-out chance we have to play Tribes with a speed and pace comparable with an icehockey match. Here-Go-There-Kill-Die-HereAgain-Go-There..

If the killing yourself-mechanic would be changed to be more time consuming, that pace would disappear and we could also play Planetside 2.

We don't want this. Trust me. I've tried it.

_________________
REMOVED FROM THE HARDDRIVE - GG HR LOSERS

How God imagined Juggernauts should be played..

Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:31 pm

Mindflayr

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:11 pm
Posts: 603

Re: Yay Balance

K-out has been an integral part of tribes as long as Skiing. It isnt the problem. Spawning in Gear is the part of the problem, as it removes the negative of the K-Out from previous games. However because Naked Path is so s*** they backed themselves into a corner during development. With the crap physics where its "Hard to Gain Speed, Easy to Keep Speed" which is the opposite of all t1/t2c they didnt know what else to do. Plus they wanted to make sure that new players could always attempt to play their way regardless of the Objectives (Flags/Gens) so they pushed specialized classes and spawn in gear despiute our protests.

Add in Regen compared to healthkits and you ends up with the current s*** balance of Chaser vs Capper. In t1 & T2c most maps had a Fastest Cap speed of 5-8 seconds from stand to stand, so high speed capping is nothing new here, the difference is that the chaser has a hard time getting going and if a great return is made they are now out of position to stop the next capper, hence the need for k-out.

Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:21 pm

Gierling

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:56 am
Posts: 1546

Re: Yay Balance

Its very simply a debug tool that people have institutionalized. Yes its part of the game, but it really does CHANGE gameplay substantially.

Imagine if you will if Blizzard put a button in to just give you a fixed amount of resources everytime you press it in SC2 as a debug tool. Now imagine that it made it out to live. Would it be used? Of course it would, it would be the most efficient way of going about things and comp would immedietly put it to use.

However it would utterly annihilate a significant part of the intended experience, Economy work would be much diminished as people spam the resource button. Yeah Pro players would still set up a quick eco to double dip a little, but thier main efforts would focus on spamming the button.

Thats basically the story of K for Suicide in Tribes, it has become so enshrined that people can't imagine the game without it. Moreover if they had to play without it they would like the game less because they've gotten used to thier crutch.

I don't dispute that the game would be fundamentally different without K for suicide, I simply do not fear that outcome and I see how it would resolve a lot of serious issues and promote a much more nuanced product overall.

Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:12 pm

Mindflayr

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:11 pm
Posts: 603

Re: Yay Balance

we wont get to continue discussion for obvious reasons (ty hirez) but i cant agree it is a debug tool. You can commit suicide 100 different ways int ribes with self damage. they just made it faster so it wasnt frustrating to try and kill yourself with explosives/fall dmg. You can argue it should have a respawn timer (like it does) or that it should be longer as a penalty to discourage it, but it wasnt a flaw in design.

Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:19 pm

Gierling

Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:56 am
Posts: 1546

Re: Yay Balance

Mindflayr wrote:

Back in the Dynamix days it was implemented as a Debug tool to help testers if they got stuck in terrain/structure geometry. Which sometimes would create states where you couldn't kill yourself with weapons as they would nonreg on geometry more often then not if the gun was stuck inside an object or under the terrain.

If you want to argue this, you will need to travel back in Time to 1998 and convince Jeff Tunnel to not tell me and everyone else in the #Dynamix IRC that bit of information.

Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:40 pm

Mindflayr

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:11 pm
Posts: 603

Re: Yay Balance

Fair enough. did not know original suicide key was put as a debug. Doesnt remove the idea that taking it out of the game would just mean suicide by explosive weaponry. The fix isnt removing K-out, its changing how it effects the game.

It wasnt a problem at all in t1 or t2.... its a prob in TA because you spawn in gear so there is no sacrifice.

Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:07 pm

Whitewhale

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:09 pm
Posts: 3587

Re: Yay Balance

gierling if u were playing in 98 then im the easter bunny

Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:05 pm

Galileus

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:49 am
Posts: 1522

Re: Yay Balance

Gierling wrote:

Skiing was a bug. What's your point?

_________________

... it got a nice ring to it, don't ya think?

Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:23 pm

VashTHT

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:28 pm
Posts: 1233

Re: Yay Balance

his point is Hi-Rez is shutting down all official servers.

today.

guess tribes forum and smite forum and all forums are not going to be used anymore.

_________________

... it got a nice ring to it, don't ya think?

Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:51 pm

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Yay Balance